Revised 15A penalties

[ericmark]

So what are the recommended penalities a TD is supposed to impose on a player who writes down a move before he makes it on the board?

This assumes the Delegates adopt the suggested rule change. Looks to me like they might not even get the chance to vote on it, unless they stay over till Monday.

Thanks.

[rfeditor]

So what are the recommended penalities a TD is supposed to impose on a player who writes down a move before he makes it on the board?

This assumes the Delegates adopt the suggested rule change. Looks to me like they might not even get the chance to vote on it, unless they stay over till Monday.

Thanks.

The proposed rule change includes the follwoing:

TD tip:
It has been common practice among several players to record the move prior to making it on the chessboard. This rule change forbids this practice, yet the news of this change has to be communicated and habits are difficult to break. For now, please do not impose serious penalties if a player violates this change. Issue a warning, and inform the player of the rule change. (This TD tip is valid until further notice.)

(I think the change is a bad idea, by the way, another example of overstepping by the Rules Committee. Some of its members seem to think they are not doing their jobs unless they change the rules frequently. They are mistaken)

[ericmark]

So what are the recommended penalities a TD is supposed to impose on a player who writes down a move before he makes it on the board?

This assumes the Delegates adopt the suggested rule change. Looks to me like they might not even get the chance to vote on it, unless they stay over till Monday.

Thanks.

The proposed rule change includes the follwoing:

TD tip:
It has been common practice among several players to record the move prior to making it on the chessboard. This rule change forbids this practice, yet the news of this change has to be communicated and habits are difficult to break. For now, please do not impose serious penalties if a player violates this change. Issue a warning, and inform the player of the rule change. (This TD tip is valid until further notice.)

(I think the change is a bad idea, by the way, another example of overstepping by the Rules Committee. Some of its members seem to think they are not doing their jobs unless they change the rules frequently. They are mistaken)

Thanks, John. I kept reading about this TD in the other thread on 15A but I could not find its wording anywhere.

This sounds to me like the change from "should" to "must" in re touching the King first when castling that was enacted a few years ago. That (proper castling protocol) will never happen for several players I know, most of them 50+ guys who grew up and began to play serious chess in the former USSR.

I've never seen a MonRoi, whatever it is. Is that what this rule change is all about?

[edgy]

(I think the change is a bad idea, by the way, another example of overstepping by the Rules Committee. Some of its members seem to think they are not doing their jobs unless they change the rules frequently. They are mistaken)

So, do you think the MonRoi should be banned from tournaments? Or do you thihk that MonRoi users should be allowed to enter their candidate move, have a nice long look at the resulting position, and then decide whether to play it or try out another candidate? There's no third option.

-ed g.

[jonnybear]

The alternate solution I've seen most discussed, is that the new rule (must make move on board before recordig it) should have been drafted to apply ONLY to players using an automatic recording device (such as Monroi) in lieu of a manual scoresheet; the majority of players who record their moves manually would still be allowed to write the move before making it on the board. (Again, this is not what was adopted; rather it's the solution usually advocated by people who criticize the Rules Committee decision. Even then, many or most critics concede that writing your move down first and then erasing it and making a DIFFERENT move than the one initially written, probably does constitute "note-taking" and therefore should be banned.)

[grubbs]

edgy wrote:

So, do you think the MonRoi should be banned from tournaments? Or do you thihk that MonRoi users should be allowed to enter their candidate move, have a nice long look at the resulting position, and then decide whether to play it or try out another candidate? There's no third option.

Could a third option not be leaving the current rule as is, but adding a proviso that prohibits any player who is using an electronic recording device that displays the position from recording their move prior to making it? I suspect that people who use these devices have yet to form hard to break habits with respect to when they record the move.

I'm not advocating for or against the proposed rule change or the use of the Monroi, just suggesting that there are probably alternatives that might satisfy concerns from all camps.

[Tim Just]

So what are the recommended penalities a TD is supposed to impose on a player who writes down a move before he makes it on the board?

This assumes the Delegates adopt the suggested rule change. Looks to me like they might not even get the chance to vote on it, unless they stay over till Monday.

Thanks.

Check out rule 1C2a. Standard Penalty: (2 minutes); however, I would suggest at least a warning first (1C2b.).

Tim

[rfeditor]

(I think the change is a bad idea, by the way, another example of overstepping by the Rules Committee. Some of its members seem to think they are not doing their jobs unless they change the rules frequently. They are mistaken)

So, do you think the MonRoi should be banned from tournaments? Or do you thihk that MonRoi users should be allowed to enter their candidate move, have a nice long look at the resulting position, and then decide whether to play it or try out another candidate? There's no third option.

-ed g.

I express no opinion on the Monroi. But even the rule change's proponents admit "It has been common practice among several players to record the move prior to making it on the chessboard." I haven't heard of any groundswell of demand among the players for this to be changed. Until there is one, the players ought not to be inconvenienced to accomodate a new gadget that a handful think is "really cool."

[Tim Just]

(I think the change is a bad idea, by the way, another example of overstepping by the Rules Committee. Some of its members seem to think they are not doing their jobs unless they change the rules frequently. They are mistaken)

So, do you think the MonRoi should be banned from tournaments? Or do you thihk that MonRoi users should be allowed to enter their candidate move, have a nice long look at the resulting position, and then decide whether to play it or try out another candidate? There's no third option.

-ed g.

I express no opinion on the Monroi. But even the rule change's proponents admit "It has been common practice among several players to record the move prior to making it on the chessboard." I haven't heard of any groundswell of demand among the players for this to be changed. Until there is one, the players ought not to be inconvenienced to accomodate a new gadget that a handful think is "really cool."

How about a variance to the proposed Monroi rule? Players with the device have to make their move first (anti cheating) while players with the old paper scoresheets continue to use the current rule.


Tim

[rfeditor]

(I think the change is a bad idea, by the way, another example of overstepping by the Rules Committee. Some of its members seem to think they are not doing their jobs unless they change the rules frequently. They are mistaken)

So, do you think the MonRoi should be banned from tournaments? Or do you thihk that MonRoi users should be allowed to enter their candidate move, have a nice long look at the resulting position, and then decide whether to play it or try out another candidate? There's no third option.

-ed g.

I express no opinion on the Monroi. But even the rule change's proponents admit "It has been common practice among several players to record the move prior to making it on the chessboard." I haven't heard of any groundswell of demand among the players for this to be changed. Until there is one, the players ought not to be inconvenienced to accomodate a new gadget that a handful think is "really cool."

How about a variance to the proposed Monroi rule? Players with the device have to make their move first (anti cheating) while players with the old paper scoresheets continue to use the current rule.


Tim

That sounds reasonable. The other thing I'd like added to the proposed 15A revision is an "opt-out" clause -- TDs who do not want to allow electronic scorekeeping devices at their tournaments should not be required to do so. Perhaps add another TLA code ("NDS" to accompany "NC").

[nolan]

NDS? Just what we need, more hieroglyphics for TLAs.

[rfeditor]

NDS? Just what we need, more hieroglyphics for TLAs.

Well, I'd be perfectly content to leave it entirely to the TD's discretion, but I'm sure some of our tech-worshippers would squeal ("Why can't my little Joey use this frivolous gadget I wasted hundreds of dollars on to keep score?")

[tanstaafl]

Organizers (NOT TDs) have ALWAYS had the right to provide a specific scoresheet that is to be used in their tournaments. They will continue to have that right after the new rule is adopted. I think it'd be a mistake for TDs or organizers to ban the new devices -- but they'd have the right.

Do we really need to stick our heads in the sand for EVERY new technology that comes along. We had the same reactions when digital clocks came along and in hindsight it seems pretty silly.

[rfeditor]

Organizers (NOT TDs) have ALWAYS had the right to provide a specific scoresheet that is to be used in their tournaments. They will continue to have that right after the new rule is adopted. I think it'd be a mistake for TDs or organizers to ban the new devices -- but they'd have the right.

Do we really need to stick our heads in the sand for EVERY new technology that comes along. We had the same reactions when digital clocks came along and in hindsight it seems pretty silly.

There is a grey area here. If the organizer provides a specific (presumably, though not necessarily, duplicating) scoresheet at each board, I agree. Does providing a stack of scoresheets for the players to pick up qualify? Would the tournament have to forbid the use of personal scorebooks in order not to allow electronic scorekeeping devices?

If you want to be an "early adopter," be my guest. But you don't have the right to demand that everyone else suffer inconvenience to accomodate you. Note the original subject of this thread -- a rules change that would require many players to alter their habits in order to accomodate the tiny minority who would be using a Monroi. That's not what the Rules Committee should be about.

[ericmark]

So what are the recommended penalities a TD is supposed to impose on a player who writes down a move before he makes it on the board?

This assumes the Delegates adopt the suggested rule change. Looks to me like they might not even get the chance to vote on it, unless they stay over till Monday.

Thanks.

Check out rule 1C2a. Standard Penalty: (2 minutes); however, I would suggest at least a warning first (1C2b.).

Tim

OK, so I assume there's no _specific_ penalty that a TD is suggested/required to apply for players who violate the new and improved 15A. It's not mentioned in the ADM as it appears in the Delegates Call.

Most TDs I know apart from CCA and the USATE will not apply any penalty. Most of them won't hear about the rule change until it appears in a hard-copy ratings supplement or is listed 'prominently' in Chess Life.

It won't affect club-level adult chess and most small to medium-small events, because it will take forever for players and TDs to hear of it and when they do most of them will shrug and scratch their heads.

The only thing that will change that will be if a player throws a fit or drops out because his opponent is writing down moves before he plays them and the TD refuses to penalize the offender.

In that case, we will see lots of TDs announce in advance and/or at the site that their events do not use the 'new' 15A.

I'd never heard of a MonRoi till a few days ago, when I read one of the previous 15A threads. How much does it cost and what are the alleged benefits over old-fashioned scorekeeping?